Unconventionals Podcast | Season 5 Episode 1

GE and the Art of Brand Reinvention

GE is Thomas Edison’s company, with a heritage of industrial innovation that goes back more than 100 years. But you’d be excused for missing this during the heyday of GE Capital, when financial services delivered 50% of corporate profit.

GE is shedding its financial services division. And it’s no longer in the refrigerator and microwave oven business. But the GE story is more about reinvention than retreat. It is looking to its mission and history as guides for how to reimagine itself. GE is deliberately applying its DNA around invention not just to its products, but in how it tells its story to the world.

In this episode, host Mike O’Toole sits down with Linda Boff, GE’s Chief Marketing Officer, about the recent changes GE has undergone. They discuss GE’s move to the forefront of the digital industrial market—the Internet of “really big things.” And they talk marketing and brand—there is perhaps no more innovative B2B marketer on the planet, and we can learn a lot from where GE is placing its bets in social platforms, content marketing, not to mention its brand strategy.

Be sure to follow us on Facebook and stay connected with The Unconventionals on Twitter.

Video Highlights

PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Mike:
I’m Mike O’Toole. I’m host of the Unconventionals and president of PJA Advertising. Along with our academic partners at Columbia business school, we’re proud to bring you the Unconventionals. The companies we feature aren’t clients. There’s no financial relationship. There’s no promotional agenda, just the stories of companies and entrepreneurs that remind us that the biggest risk in marketing is being like everyone else.

Speaker 2:
Next on PJA Radio’s, the Unconventionals …

Ron:
When you want to change, that’s unsettling to us human beings. Even if we could agree that there’s a better outcome waiting for us there in the future, the path to get to that place can be a source of real anxiety, conflict, rage. It’s stunning, what’s happening. In fact as human beings we should be very, very proud of it. What science and technology is achieving is remarkable. Sure, we’re going to feel some trepidation and we should, and we need to be cautious at times and take real responsibility for the projects that we support and the individuals who we follow, but without a doubt, it’s also to be celebrated.

Mike:
That is Ron Howard talking about Breakthrough. Breakthrough is a six part series that ran on National Geographic, produced by GE. The series looks at big challenges, pandemics, aging, energy, water, and talks about how innovation in technology and science is helping us meet them. I love how we talks about technology and change and how inseparable the two are. Now his comments could just as well be describing GE and the big wrenching change it’s in the midst of.

GE is huge, one of the world’s largest and best known brands, but it is actually, and quite deliberately getting smaller, which is not really following the global enterprise playbook. GE is in the midst of shedding it’s financial services business, which brought in 50% of it’s profits when the current CEO, Jeff Immelt took over the company. It sold it’s consumer appliance division. They are no longer in the refrigerators and ovens business, but the GE story is more about reinvention than retreat. This is what makes it a great story for the Unconventionals. How a company will look to it’s mission and it’s history as guides for how to reimagine itself and deliberately sought to apply it’s DNA around invention. This is Thomas Edison’s company after all, not just to it’s products, but in how it tells its story to the world.

I met with Linda Boff at GE’s offices in New York City. Linda was named CMO in 2015, following the footsteps of Beth Comstock. Most people, certainly Linda, credit Beth for restoring GE’s reputation as a marketing innovator. There wasn’t even a CMO at GE or 20 years or so before she took over. Under Jeff Immelt, GE is refashioning itself around it’s industrial roots, but also making huge investments in the software side of the business. GE is calling itself a digital industrial company and it’s Linda’s role to tell us what exactly that means.

Linda:
I became CMO more or less simultaneously to GE’s over transformation into a digital industrial company. It has been in place. We’ve been talking about the industrial internet. Beth was a huge, is a huge architect of that along with Jeff. Where I have come in at a moment where we need to think about how do we market the company externally as a digital industrial company, and how do we behave internally as a digital industrial company would? That’s what I think about all the time. On the first one, how do we project this? How do we make sure that the company we are today and the company we’re becoming is the brand that you start to know when you think about GE. I often say with GE our challenge is never people knowing us. The awareness of GE is so high. It’s knowing us for who we are today and knowing what we do. It’s a fight everyday. It’s a fun fight, but it’s a fight everyday for relevance for being contemporary, for being modern, for being relatable.

People don’t relate by and large to giant companies. There are exceptions. I think people feel a kinship with Apple. You’re spending all this time on your device.

Mike:
You might relate less, because they can’t buy your microwave ovens anymore and, yeah.

Linda:
We impact you all the time, everyday, and yet we’re completely invisible. You don’t think about your energy if it’s on. You don’t think about your safe flight and the power of a jet engine unless God forbid something goes wrong. Absolutely we’re there, but not in a way that’s [inaudible 00:05:05] for people. What we’ve tried to do on the brand storytelling side, and I’d say we’d been doing this for awhile. I’m continuing it on of course, is to take an approach from a tonal point of view, from a where we choose to be and for us that’s often first to market on a lot of digital platforms, that we think will cause people, A. To take a second look at us, because it’s unexpected. It’s not how you would expect a company to behave. To be human.

People don’t relate to companies. They relate to people. We try to act the way a person would, whether that’s on social media or that’s in the language that we’re using, or the stories that we’re telling. That’s number one. Number two, we try very hard to actually take the DNA of GE, which is that of invention, Thomas Edison’s company, and bring that to how we discover and show up in new platforms. For us, that has been evidenced by being the first. Sometimes one of the first, but often the very first brand on a platform like Vine or Wattpad, or Micmac, or if not the first on Instagram, one of the first on Instagram. We think that matches who the company is.

Mike:
This last point that GE sees invention as a marketing imperative, that sounds obvious, but in I fact in my experience, it’s exceedingly rare. I meet a lot of technology and life science companies that are absolutely ground breaking. Their code and their compounds are changing the world, but you would never know it because their marketing is nothing like that. It’s conservative, it’s imitative, it’s risk adverse, the opposite of innovative. This is what we can learn from GE. Be brave. Reflect on what’s great about your company and shout about it. Life’s too short to be ordinary or meek.

Linda:
I would say that GE from a marketing point of view has always been on the inch of innovation in the sense that we use this line. I don’t believe in taglines anymore, but it’s as close as you will to a tagline. That is imagination at work. That really just describes us. For GE it’s always ideas and action. Those two things are inextricably tied together. Where I would say we’ve taken this and I take some pride in this, is that we have been more deliberate in finding this. It is not an accident that we are early on platforms. For us, there is a way for us to be impactful and memorable and it’s not, we don’t have the budget even though we’re GE, to be everywhere. I think if we had the budget, I still wouldn’t be everywhere. We’re looking for the places we can stand out, but when you take all of our activities and you string them together and you start to create what is a bit of a pattern, a habit, if you will toward wow, that’s interesting. I keep seeing GE. It starts to cause people to look at us differently.

Mike:
To me that [inaudible 00:08:27] there is interesting, because you got all these things and to the outside they feel like related, but to individual little cool things. How deliberate are you guys about trying to add all that up? I buy the logic. You do lots of cool things, overtime people are going to say, “Hey, this is a different kind of company.” Do you have some big dashboard you look at that says? How does that work?

Linda:
Yeah, look, as you would imagine we’re GE. We certainly look at data. We look at sentiment. We look at the brand and how relevant we are and the value of our brand. We’re a top 10 brand. We’re worth something like $42-$43 Billion according to Interbrand. We have great pride in that. Our brand gives us licence in the commercial market. It gives us license to recruit. It gives us licence with investors, so very proud of that. Absolutely we look at dashboards. We pay a lot of attention to that. At the same time and I don’t think this is at odds with what I’m about to say, people today behave in ways that aren’t reflected on a marketing plan. For many years I think, marketers created these elaborate plans. We’re going to be promoting the brand in these places, and everybody will see them. To some degree everybody did see them, because there was much more scarcity. It wasn’t that long ago that the number of networks could be counted on a single hand.

Now there are so many opportunities for discovery that this path of continuous serendipity to me is quite important, because I actually want people to bump into GE in a variety of places that are unexpected and if they don’t match perfectly, I actually think that’s an advantage, not a disadvantage.

Mike:
It’s probably why you don’t believe in taglines anymore.

Linda:
I think, it’s funny. I thought we’d come back to this one. I’m glad we did. I think that taglines at their best speak to the essence of a brand. Imagination at work speaks to the essence of who we are. We don’t feel a need to plaster it everywhere. We’ll play that note from time to time, but not all the time. I think it’s more important for a brand to have the north star of what they stand for than to constantly say, “These are our two or three or four words.”

Mike:
Yeah, yeah. No, because imagination at work, it’s not passive. It’s not a passive thought.

Linda:
No, it’s very active.

Mike:
That tagline and brand is an inspiration, not an instructional manual. You see this in the way that GE goes to market. They tell their story across a ton of platforms and channels. The personality and narrative thread, this digital industrial strategy come through, but not everything has to be perfectly locked up together. There’s a playfulness of not taking ourselves too seriously, and a lot of what GE is doing. Take the Owen ads that are currently running.

Speaker 5:
Proud of you son. GE. Manufacturer. That’s why I dug this out for you. It’s your grandpappy’s hammer and he would have wanted you to have it.

Speaker 6:
It meant a lot to him.

Speaker 7:
Yes, GE makes powerful machines, but I’ll be writing the code that will allow those machines to share information with each other. I’ll be changing the way the world …

Speaker 5:
You can’t pick it up, can you? Go ahead. You can’t lift the hammer.

Speaker 6:
It’s okay, though. You’re going to change the world.

Mike:
There’s a handful of these ads featuring Owen. The work in part because there’s a humility to them. GE is acknowledging it’s own lack of cool, not to mention the obvious lack of cool factor in heavy industry. You root for Owen, just as you root for STEM driven innovation. These ads belong to a tier of marketing that Linda says is about getting people to love GE. It isn’t just about loving GE, it’s reminding people about why they should love technology and science.

Linda:
They’ve really hit a cord. We didn’t create them for recruiting per se, we created them so that we could tell the story of a company that is cross the chasm and becoming a different company, and recruiting is up eight fold. Go figure. It’s been great. Owen is, he’s become a meme around GE. Actually one of the ads, you can’t pick up that hammer, has found it’s way into pop culture a little bit.

Mike:
I have seen that, yeah.

Linda:
We’ve seen it on Twitter. We’ve heard it on some talk shows. “You can’t pick up that hammer.” It’s become a lot of fun.

Mike:
It’s nice when that happens.

Linda:
You can’t plan for that. You and I both know that. For us becoming a digital industrial, one part is we’ve been talking about how do you tell the story of that. Sometimes we talk about tier one, tier two, tier three, when it comes to our marketing. Tier one for us is we want people to fall in love with GE. I don’t think that’s impossible. I’ve fallen in love with GE, but we are a company that if you love science and technology and you love innovation and we find the right way to connect people with that, they do fall in love with us.

Mike:
Not everybody in the world has to fall in love with GE.

Linda:
For us it’s always about the right people, not the most people. It has been the whole time I’ve been doing this job. It’s about, and we state it very overtly on some of our social media, Facebook page, etc. IF you share our passion for science and tech, this is for you. That’s okay. That’s plenty good for us. Tier one’s about falling in love with GE. Tier two’s harder working. It’s explaining to our audiences what it is we are. If tier one is about the emotion, tier two is the rational. Then tier three is obviously make a sale all the way down to the offer. I think as marketers we have to fight for a brand not to be soft metric. It isn’t. We all know that, but we’ve got to fight. I think we have to do a better job of having the metrics to support it.

Mike:
Because it’s easier to ask the question about what’s the cost of not having a strong brand, because I think we all get that.

Linda:
We all get that. If any of us were going out and buying a car, and we said, “It doesn’t really matter what car it is, just give me an automobile,” it would be nonsensical. Brand is so ingrained in us in so many of our purchasing behaviors, but somehow on the B to B side where you and I have spent time, it’s more questioned. That being said, I’ll go on my teeny little rant here, which is we are trying hard to shew the words B to B and instead talk about just B to H, business to human. One of my colleagues at GE has this great line which is, “Nobody goes home at night and logs into a different internet.” We’ve got to fight as marketers who are selling to business leaders for great experiences, for great customer experience, for great user experience, for frictionless, for simplicity, and we can’t, any of us, hide behind the fact that those are business people. They’ll tolerate an experience that is less good than Amazon. You shouldn’t have to.

Mike:
I agree, and the other thing is it’s emotional, too. If you think about what’s at stake for somebody who decides to buy your jet engines versus someone else, that’s a career decision. It’s a million, million, millions of dollars worth.

Linda:
Yes, it is.

Mike:
You are monitoring systems in hospitals, or because there’s a lot at stake there. When we talk about stake, that’s emotional. I could lose face in my company if I make the wrong decision. If these things don’t work the way they’re supposed to I could lose my job.

Linda:
They’re career decisions, you’re absolutely right. You bring up another point as well to me, which I think as marketers we’ve all memorized this stat, but 80% of purchases start with online discovery. It’s more than the moment of transaction as you and I know. You know everybody is doing their research online, and if as a brand we don’t show up in a way that is easily discoverable, easy to access customer support, easy to do business with, easy to transact with, you could lose the sale before you even know you had a sale.

Mike:
Right, before you even knew you were in the conversation.

Linda:
You were in the competition, that’s exactly right.

Mike:
Coming up we’ll talk about machine porn and moon boots, about Ron Howard and Ronald Reagan. If you’re curious about what any of this has to do with GE, stay tuned.

Speaker 2:
You’re listening to PJA Radio’s, the Unconventionals. To learn more about the show and join in on the conversation check out our Facebook page, Facebook.com/unconventionalsradio. Our academic sponsor is the center on global brand leadership at Columbia Business School, which turns the research of academia’s foremost thinkers on branding into practical tools and insight for real world application. To learn more, visit globalbrands.org.

Ronald:
At General Electric, progress is the most important product.

Mike:
You’ll recognize that voice as Ronald Reagan, a 1950s vintage Reagan as actor and spokesman. General Electric theater is a TV show that ran for nine seasons in the 50s and 60s. It’s a reminder that GE has DNA not only in invention, but also in content marketing, not that they called it that back then. If you look at GE’s marketing today, you see that same DNA. Producing content that is good enough to earn it’s way on the mainstream channels, but also investing the emerging channels that have people’s attention today. In this sense, we can all learn a lot about where marketing is heading by paying attention to where GE is placing its bets. The best brands today see themselves as playing a role that is bigger than their products.

For GE, it’s about promoting science and technology. An expansive role like this is a richer and more durable foundation than a traditional brand identity and message. You see this in the richness and diversity of what GE puts into the market. Their bringing dozens of ideas to life in a wide range of channels. Some are huge hits. Many are not, but collectively they absolutely convey the sense of a company that believes in invention and that has a new story that you should pay attention to.

Linda:
I think we pay a lot of attention to tone. The Owen ads that we have on air now, that you and I were talking about are very deliberately self deprecating. They don’t take themselves overly seriously. In fact they poke fun a little bit at GE. The humor and the humanity is deliberate. I think as a result they stand out. I think when GE shows up on Instagram with beautiful feeds of majestic machines, machine porn as we were joking earlier, I think you pay more attention to us. I think when GE creates a series, which we just did a video series called Unimpossible Films where we were taking, literally taking a snowball on dropping it into molten, melting material and showing how the super materials that GE works on are so strong that a snowball won’t melt. All of these are ways to show not tell what a brand stands for. I think we’re big on the show, being memorable, being impactful on telling a story that people want to share with others.

We sometimes do this with physicality. A favorite example of mine as a way to remind people that we are in the material science business, an incredibly important business to us, a couple years ago we recreated the moon boots that Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin wore when they landed on the moon, because GE was part of those moon boots. Our silicones were in the original boots. A big anniversary of the moon landing was coming up, and we said, “Here’s an opportunity for us to remind people that we are a [inaudible 00:21:59] company, that we were part of a moment in history, but let’s fast forward it. Let’s be contemporary.” We created a pair of kicks using our current materials and we partnered with some great new media folks.

The folks at Supercompressor and Thrillist and we actually created sneakers and put them on sale. They sold out in a crazy amount of time, seven minutes or something. It resold on Ebay for 10 times the price, but it was a way for you to wear a piece of history. It was less about the history, and more about the future. I think that’s sometimes what brands like a GE, who have a deep history have to do. It’s remind people that never rely on the history, bring it in to the present and bring it in to the future.

Mike:
Yeah, yeah. That’s great. There’s about action and participation. The other thing I think about some of what you guys do and the way brands ought to behave is that they’re about more than you sell. They have a bigger role in people’s lives than just about your buying the products. Where is GE selfless in that way?

Linda:
Yeah, thank you. I love that question. We love science and technology. We believe that by telling, by participating and enabling stories that help people remember what is amazing about science, we all win. I’ll give you two examples. One, and I think these were fairly selfless. You’ll judge. The audience will judge.

One was a partnership that we did last fall with National Geographic and Brian Grazer and Ron Howard where we co-created six hours of programming about science. We did this with six different directors, so sort of 30 for 30 for science. Ron Howard created an episode, Angela Bassett, Paul Giamatti, and each one was about a topic that we felt was important to the world. Pandemics, robotics, the future of energy, longevity, and GE was truly a co-producer in this. This was not about sponsorship. These aired on National Geo globally, so in 100 plus countries. They were not about us. Our scientists were in some of the episodes as it was organically advancing the story, but it was not a GE story. It was a story about where the brain is headed, where neuroscience is headed, where energy is headed.

Another example, a quick one, is we did a podcast last fall called The Message on [inaudible 00:24:47] that was a sci-fi set of stories. It was very much absent GE, but we did it under the moniker of GE theater. I don’t know if anybody remembers this, but certainly we do. GE theater was one of the great examples from the 50s of brand activation. Back then, whether it was GE or Procter & Gamble in the soaps, that’s how brands activated. Once again, we wanted to take a little bit of a lesson from history. We created GE podcast theater, something that I think is particularly appropriate to this conversation. What we created was this science fiction narrative, and while we were the ones behind it, it really had almost nothing to do with us beyond the fact that it was our love for science fiction. It rocketed to number one on iTunes.

It brings us to another point perhaps, which is I think for a brand to stand out particularly when you talk about content marketing and storytelling, the standard bearer needs to be the best possible content out there, not the best brand content because the best brand content might not be a high enough bar.

Mike:
It has an agenda, possibly.

Linda:
They have an agenda. I think for those of us in this space, you have to find that line between how do you advance your brand, because that’s what you’re being paid to do, but how do you do it in a way that people really are interested and entertained and what to consume it. For us, by putting science and technology as one of the big things we’re laddering up to, I think that’s been helpful.

Mike:
When you have a bigger agenda, a bigger brand role like promoting science and technology, it helps to enlist other people in the effort. Many of the Unconventionals we’ve talked to depend on networks of like-minded people to build their business. I like to call these people the crazies. The people, whether they’re customers or not who share your vision and passion for the market. At PJA we see crazies in every industry and as a rule of thumb they make up about 30% of the audience. Linda and I talked about GE’s crazies. One thing that I like is her sense that the crazies aren’t a fixed group. We all have a latent geek in us, and GE believes they can bring this love in technology and science out.

Linda:
I would say we have found them by putting out the content that they will consume and love and share in places that they’re likely to find it. Our crazies, I think love to geek out. They love science. They love how stuff works. They love shows like Myth Busters and brain games. I’m not trying to typify them, but I think that’s right. They go to Comic-con and I think if you put out content and stories, there is a high proclivity if you put them in the right places that there’s a good chance that they will find them. You have to geek out. You might put them on Imagur or Reddit where there’s a higher audience that might geek out. I’d say we look for the places where our fan boys and girls are likely to be, and we try super hard to think about them and the user.

I’d say one thing that is, I don’t know, maybe it’s my secret super power or whatever, is I’m not a technologist. I like to geek out, but I don’t approach things from a technical solution point of view. I approach them from a user point of view. Whenever we’re talking about a potential marketing program or an idea, I will default to the user and push as hard as I can on behalf of the user because even if we have great content, and even if we have great contacts, because I used to say as we all did, “Content is king, and context is queen.” I still believe those things are quite important. Without that user first mentality, it doesn’t matter at all. I’d say that’s the first thing.

The second thing though, I will say, because even though I love the crazies, and I’m stealing it, is I believe that everyone loves science. They just don’t know it. You have to see something like the Martian, I believe, to get that concept that you can watch Matt Damon. I guess we can all watch Matt Damon as much as possible, but you can watch him growing crops on Mars and learn about botany and have no idea you’re learning about botany. I think that there are absolutely the people who are … Somebody that I used to work with called them the nut nuts, the people who just are so obsessed. God, I hope they all find us, but I also think there’s a way to talk about science that makes a lot of people fall in love with it who wouldn’t say that they are the crazies or the nut nuts. I think that’s worth doing.

Mike:
GE is a big company, and big companies usually move slowly and big companies that operate in regulated markets like energy and healthcare tend to be really risk adverse. We talked a little bit about what’s going on culturally, organizationally that allows for innovation at GE. Linda talked about a couple things. One is that they’ve invested heavily in the notion of lean operations or lean startup principles. They talk about themselves as that 124 year old startup. I love how Ranjay Gulati talked about this effort in a Harvard business review article. He said, “GE is a smart company. They understand the pathology of bigness. Lean startup is a way to fight this pathology. There are specific practices, decentralized decision making, agile project management that go along with all this, but it’s also deeply cultural. GE is a company where it’s okay to take risks, to make mistakes, as long as we’re talking about marketing and branding, not about jet engines.”

Linda:
We’re Edison’s company. We keep experimenting. I think that’s both a driver and I think for the people who work here, it’s a passion moment. People here have the room and the runway to experiment. We try to experiment with purpose. We’re laddering up to what the company is about, but I would argue vigorously that a lot of the experimentation you and I are talking about here is experimentation that does make you look at the brand a different way.

Mike:
Experimentation also is just a little bit away from risk, because you don’t know how an experiment’s going to turn out all the time. You guys try a lot of stuff. Can you talk about, what’s that appetite for risk at the company? How is risk perceived and I guess how is failure perceived?

Linda:
I love that question, because we’re the company that popularized Six Sigma. How do you square that with, I don’t know, Snapchat and some of the stuff we’re doing? Here’s how I square it. It’s very logical to me. When you are, if you’re flying home today, you want us to be [inaudible 00:32:12] sigma in the jet engine on the plane. You want us to have check every toll gate, for this to be beyond reproach. I think there in our factories and with our technology, we’ve got to be so reliable. That’s critical.

I think in marketing you can’t risk your reputation and I never think we’ve come close to that line. It’s something we all hold very dear, but you can experiment because marketing does not need to be Six Sigma. Marketing can have that flexibility, and in fact I think it needs to in order to try. If you don’t have that, a little bit of that is it going to work, I don’t know, maybe you haven’t quite pushed hard enough. I think we’re very thoughtful. My secret weapon is I hire people who are excellent and know what they’re doing and know the platforms and the technology and know that hey, something could explode in our face. If it’s going to cause reputational damage we’re not going to do it. At the same time I think if we’re not pushing a bit that’s not our brand. Our brand pushes. It goes back to what I said, brand in motion. How do you stay in motion if you’re not trying things?

Mike:
There’s a lot of failure in the original foundation of the company.

Linda:
Edison tried 10,000 times to create a light bulb. He kept trying.

Mike:
I also like too, the reminder that, we talked about some of your great successes, things like Breakthrough and Unimpossible challenges, but not everything is that way.

Linda:
Not everything is that way. Not everything is that way.

Mike:
You can’t expect it to be.

Linda:
You can’t expect it to be. Nobody, even the best ball players bat what, 330 something?

Mike:
Yeah, and that’s hall of fame.

Linda:
That’s hall of fame. That’s hall of fame. We strive for more than that.

Mike:
Yeah, serendipity doesn’t have a batting average.

Linda:
Not really. Sometimes you get super lucky. We all know the examples. Oreo was prepared to be serendipitous. They were prepared when the lights went out at the Super Bowl to act upon it. Had they not been prepared, they wouldn’t have had the Tweet heard around the world. It just wouldn’t have happened. You can’t just sit there and say, “Oh, one day I’m going to get lucky.” That’s a bad strategy. If you’re not prepared, I don’t think you’re going to get lucky, but I think you up the chances immeasurably if you get yourself ready for battle and then you can take action.

Mike:
Thanks for listening. Next time the Unconventionals goes to the Motor City and talks with a remarkable team at Shinola, who’s creating manufacturing jobs in an in demand fashion brand in Detroit.

Speaker 2:
The Unconventionals is written and produced by Mike O’Toole and Reid Mangan. Post production and technical direction by Reid Mangan. Promotion and distribution by Greg Straface and Graham Spector. Additional media by Anthony Gentles and Ryan Doe. Our executive director is Philson Johnson for PJA Advertising and Marketing. I’m [inaudible 00:35:35]. To listen to more episodes of the Unconventionals, visit agencyPJA.com/theunconventionals.

Mike:
This is PJA Radio.

THE UNCONVENTIONALS
THE UNCONVENTIONALS

Discover more incredible stories of counter-intuitive moves that paid off big.

EXPLORE

NEVER MISS AN EPISODE.

Subscribe on iTunes now.

NEVER MISS A STORY

Brand for change

Life is too short to build an ordinary brand. Get ongoing perspectives on marketing that creates your highest value opportunities.