Unconventionals Podcast | Season 4 Episode 7

Rethink Robotics: The New Face of Industrial Robots

Even though they’ve become a necessary part of society’s progress and have made life much easier, robots are a lot of work. They require teams of programmers in order to perform the most basic tasks, and every worker on the line needs to learn the safe way to interact with them. Yet, they were all we had.

Rethink Robotics set out to find a better way to integrate these disruptive machines into manufacturing. The solution was Baxter — a friendly robot that works alongside people rather than replacing them. It doesn’t require a bunch of programmers to get started. You simply grab the arm, walk it through the desired action, and let it get to work. Once you show it how to do something, it can do it over and over again. And, by design, Baxter is completely safe to be around.

In this episode, we chat with Jim Lawton, Chief Product and Marketing Officer at Rethink Robotics. Hear how these collaborative robots are so comfortable to work with that co-workers dress them up and take photos with them, and how the company is working towards a future where robots are accessible to everyone — from factories to classrooms and even your living room.

Video Highlights

PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Speaker 1:

Next on PJA Radio's The Unconventionals.

Jim Lawton:

The very first time somebody opens the robot, they'll take them out of the box and they'll smile and they'll move toward the robot and want to interact with the robot. A lot of times we find after we've come back, the robot has a new name or it has a sweat shirt that says Tom Brady on it or it has a hat from their local sports team. We get a lot of unsolicited pictures of our customers hugging their robots. I can be pretty sure that most pieces of equipment in the typical factory aren't being hugged.

Mike O'Toole:

That is Jim Lawton who is chief product and marketing officer for Rethink Robotics. The Unconventionals is a show about disruption and robots are disruptive, right? They do dangerous work like finding and disarming IEDs on the battle field, they vacuum our floors and clean our gutters. Then there's the dark side, like when robots cross the line, take the uncanny valley when robots creep us out because they're a little too human, or worse, when they take our jobs or maybe even take over you know, once the singularity happens. With robotics as a forever future oriented industry, it is easy enough to forget that robots and factories are old technology.

We can all picture them huge swinging arms, sparks flying, caged in factory floors assembling cars. Industrial robots have been around since the 60s. Like 1961 in fact, was the first robot at a GM plant. They're necessary, they're part of an inevitable match towards progress, but these industrial robots, they're big, they're inflexible, even a little menacing. Industrial robots after 55 years, are a little high bound, and needs some disrupting. This is where Rethink Robotics comes in, the company's vision is for robots that work alongside humans, guided and taught by these same workers. Robots who can play that role, have to behave and look quite different, and they have to overcome five plus decades of practice and convention about the proper role of robots in a factory.

Jim Lawton:

Robots have been around for a really long time. The earliest robot went into manufacturing in the early 1960s, and then of course, there's a big push for robots in the 80s, when we were trying to compete on the global stage from a automotive perspective. Robots have really been pretty similar ever since then. Yet, when we looked at manufactures, we work with companies here in the US, companies in China, 90% of the tasks inside a typical manufacturer couldn't really be done with a traditional piece of automation. For a couple of a reasons, one is they tend to be very expensive, you buy the robot and then you spend typically three to five times that deploying the robot.

They require a lot of programming, so they're not very easy to use. Often times they'll take months and every implementation looks like a custom project, you design it to do a specific thing. The other big thing with the traditional robot is they can be very unsafe. You get hit the wrong way by a regular robot and they can kill you. We really looked at it and said, "Okay, so you got all these tasks that can't be done with a regular robot, they're very expensive and you need an engineering degree to be able to program them, there has to be a different way." If you think about the complexity of the phones that are in our pockets, they're not that hard to use.

We really went out and said, "With all of the advances in sensor technology and CPU capability, we should be able to design a different robot." That's really what led to us creating Baxter a few years ago, launching in 2012. Baxter is a robot that you show it how to do it's job rather than program it. You pick its arm up, you show it how to perform a task and then once you do it, it knows how to do it, and it will do it over and over again. It's very inexpensive and it's inherently safe to be around. These robots can be working side by side with a human and they won't hurt you.

Mike O'Toole:

Jim used teaching his son how to tie his shoes as an analogy for how Baxter is trained. When your child's first learning to tie shoes, you reach around, take his hands and guide him through the process of tying. That's pretty much how a shop floor worker teaches Baxter. There's no armies of programmers needed. You take Baxter's arm, walk it through the desired action then let the robot go. We have a link to a Rethink Robotics video on our Unconventionals website. Watch it for five seconds and you'll get how to program an industrial robot. This is revolutionary but intuitive programming alone isn't enough to make Baxter a welcome and useful colleague on a factory floor.

Jim Lawton:

It's a robot that can work with people and around people. If you look at an automotive factory, a lot of automotive factories are highly automated. In fact, 65% of our robots today, go into the automotive industry. What you don't see is a lot of people. But you look at most factories and there are people everywhere, and there's so many tasks in the world where you want to be able to have the robot working with a person working with a robot. A collaborative robot is a robot that is designed to be used by a person. There are a number of things that companies do to be able to make robots accessible to people both in terms of showing them how to work, being safe to be around, being able to be comfortable with the robot.

For example, one of the technologies that we put into our robots is called the anticipatory artificial intelligence, and what it does is you and I as humans give off signals to each other that make you comfortable around me and me comfortable around you. For example, I've got a water bottle in front me right now. If I had to go reach for that water bottle, my eyes will look at it momentarily before my arms move. I would be subconsciously doing that but you would be taking in that signal that says, "Jim's about to go reach his hand for the water bottle." My actions would be consistent with your expectations which make you comfortable around me. The robot knows where it's going to move its hand, why not have the robot do the same thing.

Mike O'Toole:

The eyes of the thing, it's artificial intelligence, but it's also looks like a face?

Jim Lawton:

Yeah, we did a lot of work on the face. One of the things that we discovered early on is robots are only going to be useful if people use them and they're only going to use them if they feel comfortable being around them. If I pick out a big mechanical heavy hastier piece of equipment and it looks like it could hurt me, I'm not going to go near it, I'm going to step away from it. We intentionally thought through what we needed to do to design the robots so that it's something that's very approachable and I'm drawn toward it as opposed to being repulsed by it, and so the face was a really important part of that.

Mike O'Toole:

It's interesting because the face is the first thing you notice when you look at it, and there's nothing really human about it but can you talk about the balance? How do make the robot accessible without going to far?

Jim Lawton:

We did a lot of experimentation with the design of the face. As you and I look at it, it's really a display, so I could put anything I wanted on that display. I could put your face, I could put my face. We did a lot of experimentation and testing early on and one of the things that we found when we put a human face on the display, it looked creepy.

Mike O'Toole:

Right.

Jim Lawton:

All of a sudden, you've got this thing that looks remarkably like a human but it's not, and it doesn't act exactly like a human and that just makes me uncomfortable. On the other hand, if you make it look too cartoonish or too toy-like, so it's clearly not human, then you have a different problem. Then you got the problem of, I'm the VP of manufacturing and I've just invested how much money on a bunch of robots and the CEO comes walking by and says, "I need to believe that this operation is being run by robots that are going to be reliable and consistent and deliver on expectations, and I'm not hiring a bunch of toys to do it."

Kind of like what that balance looked like. What's been really amazing to us, not a week goes by when somebody doesn't say to me, "You know, I love your robot. They're so friendly to be around. I love the way it smiles," which I always kind of chuckle because there's no mouth. Yet what it's done is the robot's created this sense of comfort so that people feel as though they're engaging with this really happy piece of technology.

Mike O'Toole:

Do you find people getting attached to the robots like what does that look like?

Jim Lawton:

We do, we do. A lot of times, the very first time somebody opens up the robot, they'll take them out of the box and they'll smile and they'll move toward the robot and want to interact with the robot. A lot of times we find after we've come back, the robot has a new name or has a sweat shirt that says Tom Brady on it or it has a hat from their local sports team. They've attached a personality to this robot and one of the things that has been really interesting for us is to ... We get a lot of unsolicited pictures of our customers hugging their robots. I can be pretty sure that most pieces of equipment in the typical factory aren't being hugged.

Mike O'Toole:

Rethink Robotics started shipping Baxter, its first generation robot in early 2013. Sawyer their later robot has been out since last year. At this point, Rethink Robotics has dozens of customers including some of the world's biggest manufacturers all over the world. One of the hallmarks of unconventional companies is the way they collaborate with their best customers. Think of this as co-creating with your crazies, waves in their army of volunteer [mat 00:09:15] markers is a great example. Baxter and Sawyer are general purpose robots. They're flexible, easy to program so there's a real sense of customers being partners in invention here, figuring out new ways to use the robots.

Jim Lawton:

Let me give you an example of a person by the name of [Roland Manasse 00:09:32]. He's one of the executives at General Electric that's really leading their charge in terms of what will it mean for them and for their customers to have collaborative robots, and so he really thinks about them as an extension of a person, as a tool. The analogy that he gives or the example he gives is, it's been for a long time when you hire an engineer, you buy them a computer. We're going to get to a point when you hire a new production worker, you're going to buy them a collaborative robot. It's going to be an assistant, it's going to be a tool that they can use to help them do their job better.

In fact one of the plants inside GE uses the analogy with a surgeon. There are a number of assistants that work in an operating room with a surgeon that almost know what the surgeon wants before they want it and hands it to them. We're going to have robots that are working in that kind of capacity helping people, and I think it will extend eventually beyond factories and into homes. If you think of an elderly person that maybe making breakfast and may not be able to perform all of the actions, the person may be reaching for something and the robot will assist with some of the actions. I think we're starting to see some of those cases in manufacturers. General Electric is looking to deploy robots as assistants to people.

Mike O'Toole:

Interesting. Was that something you expected or anticipated or are there ways that customers like GE surprise you?

Jim Lawton:

The approach that GE took doesn't surprise us in retrospect, but it wasn't what we were thinking about when we designed the robot. I think one of the things that we've been pleasantly surprised with is coming back to the point that traditional robots have been designed for the specific thing that they're doing and so there's no surprises in what they're ultimately implemented for because that's how they were put together. These kind of robots are much more general purpose. If I started to work at a factory, they might say, "Hey Jim, can you pack some boxes today?" I'd say, "Sure, let me go pack some boxes." "Jim, can you take these plastic parts off of a production line?" "Yeah, I'll go take the parts off the production line."

We've designed them in such a way that they're very general purpose, which then means that customers can use them anyway they want. In the early days when we were supporting our customers for implementations of Baxter, we would help them deploy the robot. In the last several months, they tell us what they've done after the fact and so, we love getting videos from our customers because all these people are sending in really interesting things that they're doing with robots that because they're general purpose, they can, that we didn't anticipate when we designed the robot. There's a lot of experimentation that goes along with these robots and I think ultimately, we're a company of a hundred people in South Boston. We can come up with some cool interesting things, but the world's full of seven billion people doing really interesting things. There's all kinds of unique and different applications that these kind of robots are going to do because people can experiment with them.

Mike O'Toole:

Yeah, yeah.

Jim Lawton:

Try things that haven't been thought of before.

Mike O'Toole:

Rethink Robotics customers are finding new applications in the factory and that's where the company is focused today, but the design of the robots could render them really useful to a whole set of feature tasks that have nothing to do with manufacturing.

Jim Lawton:

What are these robots? They're inexpensive, they're not going to kill you and you show them what to do. If you think about those three things, what's to stop me from using the robots for search and rescue and space exploration and certainly elder care. In fact, our founders Rodney Brooks, he was one of the co-founders of iRobot, he would often say, "I'm designing the kinds of robots that are going to take care of when I get older." If you look at the demographics in a lot nations, the United States and Japan, the number of people that are older that are requiring services is dwarfing the number of people that are going to be available to provide those services and so there aren't going to be enough people to go around. Being able to use robots in those kinds of ways.

Recently, the government of China relaxed their policy on one child and what they found is that they're just started, the turnover at many of these factories is 25 to 30% per month of people that are constantly, they're trying to hire and talent acquisition is so difficult. We're going to find robots used in homes and in services businesses and the barista at the coffee and taking your tickets at the movie theater, and preparing food for you at dinner time. All of those are the kinds of things where we're going to see these things go. I think over the longer term, you're also going to start to see robot makers start to leverage some of the newer technologies around voice and gesturing.

There's some really interesting academic research going on at Brown of when I combine the spoken word with the ability to point, I get so much more accurate, as opposed to saying, "You know, can you pick that glass for me?" Or point to something, "Can you pick up that glass for me," it becomes so much more effective. If you look at the technology that's in Amazon echo, before I left for work today, I said to Alexa, I said, "Alexa, how long is it going to take me to commute to work?" And she told me, we're getting into the point where I say, "Alexa, can you fold the bucket of laundry and have it done for me when I get home." Those are kind of things that we're going to see in the not to distant future.

Mike O'Toole:

Coming up, is Baxter the robot taking jobs or creating more interesting ones? What can Rethink Robotics and Rosy from the Jetsons tell us about the future?

Speaker 1:

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Mike O'Toole:

Welcome back to the Unconventionals. Our guest is Jim Lawton who heads up marketing and product strategy at Rethink Robotics. The company is the creator of next generation industrial robots that have eyes, arms and can be taught by the worker's next to them. We have a video on the Unconventional website that shows Baxter folding a shirt, check it out. It's going to give you a sense of his dexterity and utility. Folding laundry is one thing, it saves you from a little drudgery, who could argue with that but displacing jobs is another thing altogether. Here's from president Obama's final state of the union.

Pres. Obama:

What is true and the reason that a lot of Americans feel anxious, today technology doesn't just replace jobs on the assembly line, but any job where work can be automated. All these trends have squeezed workers, even when they have jobs, even when the economy is growing. Although none of these trends are unique to America, they do offend our uniquely American belief that everybody who works hard should get a fair shot.

Mike O'Toole:

Is Rethink Robotics taking away much needed manufacturing jobs?

Jim Lawton:

The first thing I would say is in all of, and we've done hundreds now if implementations of collaborative robots, we don't have a single customer that's ever laid off a single person as a result of having a collaborative robot. I think when you broaden the discussion a little bit and think about it, if you go back to the churn of the previous centuries, from the 1890s to 1900s, most people in the United States had some aspect of their career that was associated with farming. Most people were farmers in some capacity. If you look a hundred years later, most people were not. The top jobs if you will back in the 1900s were a set of things, if you look at the top jobs today, they're very different. If you look at the top jobs a hundred years from now, they're going to be very different still.

Back in 1900, we never would have anticipated Google or a Facebook or an Amazon, and so, there are going to be some jobs that go away. They aren't nearly as many bank tellers as they used to be 30 years ago. Then they're going to be a bunch of other jobs that are created that aren't even on the list. There are studies that have been done that have actually ranked these are the jobs that are at a higher risk of having of being replaced by some form of automation. I can give you that list so I can point to this job is at high risk. I can't give you the other list because it hasn't been created yet.

Mike O'Toole:

Right.

Jim Lawton:

I think there's always fear around, "Well, is my job one of the jobs that could be [crosstalk 00:18:48]?

Mike O'Toole:

Well, because that something that's [inaudible 00:18:49] all of us.

Jim Lawton:

We care about our health and we care about our livelihood, we care about providing for our family and it's very natural to feel fear and concern over, "Am I going to be able to do that?" And my job is an important part of that.

Mike O'Toole:

Yeah. You gave an earlier example, it was counting a hundred cups for the day, like who really wants to do that?

Jim Lawton:

Yeah, Deloitte's estimated that by 2020, there are going to be 2 million jobs in manufacturing that unfilled. If you look at the amount of time it takes to fill a manufacturing job, it's longer than any other category.

Mike O'Toole:

What's that about? Is it because the jobs have become more demanding?

Jim Lawton:

I think it's because they're less interesting. When you poll millennials, they don't want to do manufacturing jobs. The typical person doing a manufacturing job is a white man in his 50s and the younger generations are not interested in doing these kinds of jobs.

Mike O'Toole:

Although, it does seem like there's a lot being written about the future manufacturing and how it requires a much higher level of training and skill.

Jim Lawton:

We're finding a lot of cases where people who were on the production line are now becoming robot supervisors, so they're supervising a group of robots that are performing tasks and so the skills that they need and the technologies that they get to use in interacting with these robots in interesting and really advanced kinds of ways are fascinating and it's attracting a lot of people. There's a lot of work that's going on right now within the stem arena from a technology and an engineering perspective of colleges and high schools and public schools starting to train people to leverage this kinds of technology. There's a whole category of new jobs that these kind of robots are going to help support.

Mike O'Toole:

We've talked to a number of companies and the Unconventionals who take an unusually long view of their business. I think of Big Ass fans and its 200 year plan or Evernote and its vision of a hundred year company. Robotics would seem to invite such long term thinking but like any young company, Rethink Robotics has enormous daily pressures around growth and operations. The question is, how do they stay focused on the longer arc of their industry?

Jim Lawton:

Coming back to the customers that we're engaged with today and the ones that we spend the most time with, many of them are not interested in buying a robot, what they're interested in is how is this kind of technology going to solve problems over the long term? What are the really interesting things that we're going to be able to do, and how can we grow our road maps together? What they really want to understand is what's your vision for where all these is going? We talk inside the company of, "Let's think about where we want to go as getting to the other side of the river and let's try to make a very clear view of what that could look like 20 years, 30 years, 50 years down the line."

Then our job as a company becomes one of, how do we create the stepping stones that allow us to walk across the river, to move in that direction. If we just think about the future, we're never going to get there. If we just think about the very next thing, we may or may not get to this really interesting place where this technology is going to start to do this really powerful things. What we're seeing is that the convergence of collaborative robots with 3D printing with big data analytics, think about robot in the future where it tries something, it learns something and it wants to share that with somebody else, it can share with a human, it can share with other robots through collaborative robotics. We're going to be able to share experiences that one robot has with both other robots and with other people.

Think of robots that are able to use the vision systems and the cameras they in them too. If I come to see an object for the first time a tool, I take a picture of that tool and I send it up to a data base in the cloud and then information is passed back to the robot that says, "Yeah, that's this kind of a tool and here is how you use it and here is when you use it." There's a bunch of things that technologies are going to be able to leverage that we're just starting to see the early parts of them now. Everyone allow systems and companies and manufacturers to grow and to get better over time as a result of robots that are learning from their experiences and sharing it with each other. It's those kind of conversations that our customers are really interested in having.

Mike O'Toole:

That's interesting. Today's example would be that when Baxter is taught to move and pick a piece but then all 50 could know how to do that immediately if that kind of system were in place. Obviously, you're talking about even bigger ideas.

Jim Lawton:

I used to work for HP for a number of years running operations for them. We used to have a saying inside HP, "If HP only what HP knows, think of how powerful that would be." The reality is it's very difficult for organizations to benefit from the experiences of people within an organization. With robots, we're going to have the same opportunity for a robot that learns as it runs a particular process or performs a particular task, it will learn something, and then it will have the ability to share that learning with all of the other robots and share with other people. The organization will benefit collectively from the experiences of all of the people but also of the robots inside the company.

Mike O'Toole:

I'm going to get a little nerdy here for a second, there's a super cool train of thought that connects science fiction about space flight with the real thing, and the sense is that in some ways, NASA has drawn inspiration even ideas from science fiction. Check out what NASA says about Dawn, its mission to explore the asteroid belt. Turns out NASA engineers got the idea for ion propulsion which powers Dawn from captain Kirk in the Star Ship Enterprise. The point is people have been imagining space travel for a whole lot longer than we've actually been in space, same thing for robots, we've been fascinated by them for a long time and Rethink Robotics draws as much inspiration from the more intimate human [scout 00:24:32] conception of robots from pop culture as they do from industrial robots.

Jim Lawton:

I find the notion of robots that are able interact with people is creating these conversations that we didn't have thirty years ago because the fact that the robots were unsafe, you had to separate them, the robot had to be in a cage. Now, that the robots and humans can come together in interest ways, it is leading to a lot of conversations that I do find fascinating. I think the way that people empathize for robots and are connected to robots in a very different way, whether it's dating back to [R2D2 00:25:10], is one of my fans or Rosy from the Jetsons.

Mike O'Toole:

Yeah, yeah.

Jim Lawton:

We all think about these robots from pop culture and we also think about terminators. What happens when we have robots that are sufficiently smart that they can be thinking on their own. I think there's an aspect to that that's very intriguing. I don't think we know how it all plays out in the long term.

Mike O'Toole:

I think we all have fun thinking about these kinds of topics and I'm just curious, do any of these robots in pop culture, the singularity, does that ever come up with conversations with customers?

Jim Lawton:

Never, it doesn't come up at all.

Mike O'Toole:

Yeah.

Jim Lawton:

One of the quotations from Arthur C. Clarke goes along line and I paraphrase a little bit, but we tent to overestimate the impact of technology in the short term and underestimate its impact in the long term. A lot of the aspects of what we're talking about with singularity and the potential that might exist is not a short term, it's not a 10, 20, 30 year kind of time frame. It's something much, much longer. The companies that we work with, they're trying to improve their ability to serve their customers better and more efficiently and give the customer more of the products that they're looking for, and if robots can help do that in a better way then that's interesting to them. There are longer term questions that will lead to go explore as a society but the short term is, how can I leverage some of these technologies to do good in the world.

Mike O'Toole:

As an innovator in collaborative robots, Rethink Robotics faces some interesting tensions. The same things that help Baxter fit in on the factory flow, its accessibility, its note to human features and interaction can undermine it in the eyes of traditional buyers. Rather than engineer out what makes the robot special, the company instead is doing the work of identifying, educating buyers who are looking for change.

Jim Lawton:

Sure, there is definitely some of that. We've had feedback from some customers that have said, "You should paint your robots grey." "Why is that?" "Because everything else in the factory is grey and it should look grey too, because it doesn't look like it's what you would normally find in a factory." There's always a certain amount of, listening to the quote of Henry Ford, "If we'd asked the customer what they want they would have said faster horses." You have to be very careful and balance this line between if we don't provide real value then we're not going to sell robots and we're not going to be able to advance the technology. On the other hand if we do precisely what people say, we're going to build robots that aren't particularly useful. We need to build robots that are going to be engaging and that people want to be around and so we think about that, that balance and that responsibility we have in thinking that through."

Mike O'Toole:

What percentage of your audience is like that? Open to change, aware of gaps, is it a minority?

Jim Lawton:

Probably a third at this point ...

Mike O'Toole:

Yep.

Jim Lawton:

... Are pretty open. I think you come from a place where a couple of years ago no one knew there was a different way to think about robots. The earliest people were those are just intrigued by using new technology or very intimate with the limitations of existing automation and so they've thought about the problem and have hope that there maybe alternative ways of approaching solving the problem. When they see it, they're like, "Let's run an experiment, let's try this out, let's see what it looks like." Then as more and more people start to become aware of it through customers using these kind of robots and talking about the benefits that they're getting, it leads to more and more people wanting to explore them. A couple of years ago, people didn't know what the term collaborative robots are, and now you have people that are funding projects and are thinking about, how could they put a program in place to understand whether or not they can benefit from them and what that might look like.

Mike O'Toole:

How do you find those people who are open to change? Do they find you or, are there behaviors they exhibit?

Jim Lawton:

I think it's a combination. We've gone to ... Many of them have come to us and said, "Look, as an industry, robot makers are letting us down. We're not getting from you what we need to get from you, and if we're going to continue to compete on a global stage, we need different forms of technology, we need different forms of robotics." There's definitely people that are doing that kind of outreach. Then we've gone directly to manufacturers and have said to them, "What are the challenges that you're struggling with and what are the things that we could do with technology that would help you?" Then we take the responsibility of figuring out how to bridge that gap, and say, "What if we had a robot that operated like this?"

Things that had driven people, that had been problems have been, one of my alluded to, in the old days, you used to be able to get a line up and running, build one thing, ten million times and that was good. What if today customers want blue ones and tomorrow they want red ones and the next day they want green ones? I need to be able to switch and accommodate my line from day to day to be able to deal with that. Robots aren't good at that. What if I want to be able to put factories near my customers so I can be responsive to the kinds of products that they want developed? That can work well if you've got manufacturing and you're trying to target areas where there's low cost labor in the world, but if you're trying to sell products in the places where that may not be the case, then you're having to put your factories in other places and they're not as near customers.

This idea of being able to allow people to innovate more closely with their customers by bringing manufacturing and design to the same place where the customers are. Those are the kinds of ... When people came to us with challenges they said, "Look, robots aren't doing us a very good job, helping us in those areas. What could we do with robots that will allow us to solve those kinds of problems?"

Mike O'Toole:

Yeah. I'm Mike O'Toole and this is the Unconventionals. Thanks for joining us on this latest season, and as always we welcome your feedback. In particular, we're always on the hunt for companies that are showing us a new way forward, so if you have a favorite unconventional business, let us know and we might feature it next season. Until then, thanks for listening.

Speaker 1:

The Unconventionals is written and produced by Mike O'Toole and Reid Mangan. Cost production and technical direction by Reid Mangan, promotion and distribution by Greg Straface and Graham Spector, additional media by Anthony Gentles and Ryan Bill. Our executive director is Phil Johnson for PJA Advertising and Marketing and [inaudible 00:31:41]. To listen to more episodes of the Unconventionals, visit agencypja.comtheunconventionals.

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